Engineer or Gardener? David Hurst on AI, the Ecocycle and the Rigidity Trap

Most senior leaders in mature businesses know something is wrong. Their organisation is efficient, profitable and increasingly unable to move. What they lack is a language for what to do about it.

** This podcast references a number of slides. You may prefer the version on www.youtube.com/@arkaro **

David Hurst has spent fifty years developing that language. In this episode of Arkaro Insights, the author of The New Ecology of Leadership and Crisis & Renewal joins Mark Blackwell to revisit the ecocycle in the age of AI. The result is a rare kind of conversation: theoretically deep, practically usable and honest about what generative AI can and cannot do for a mature organisation.

David maps a two-loop trajectory of organisational life. The front loop of growth, maturity and conservation is where large language model AI does its best work, predicting stable patterns from yesterday's data. The back loop of crisis and renewal is where the map runs out and only a compass will do. Most large businesses in agriculture, food and chemicals sit at the top of the front loop, brilliant at yesterday's logic and vulnerable to today's change. Escaping the rigidity trap means learning to toggle between two postures: the engineer who optimises a known system and the gardener who creates conditions for an unknown future to emerge.

About David Hurst

David K. Hurst is a reflective practitioner, speaker, educator and writer on management. He spent twenty-five years as a senior operating executive in Canadian industry, followed by three decades as a writer and educator. Author of Crisis & Renewal (Harvard Business School Press) and The New Ecology of Leadership (Columbia Business School Publishing). Contributing editor at strategy+business. Regular contributor to the Global Peter Drucker Forum. Based in Oakville, Ontario.

Website: www.davidkhurst.com
Recent essays: davidkhurst.medium.com

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Transcript

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David Hurst 0:47

And provided tomorrow is just like today, you're gonna do fabulously well. And you will for a while.

Mark Blackwell 0:59

Welcome back to the Arkaro Insights Podcast. This is where we bring together practitioners and researchers for honest practical conversations on leadership, change, and innovation in a complex world. I'm your host, Mark Blackwell. Today we're tackling a very critical and timely question facing executives everywhere. As AI reshapes management, how do we distinguish between the problems that AI can solve and the complexity that only humans can navigate? To help us

AI And The Ecocycle Question

Mark Blackwell 1:34

explore this, I'm really thrilled to have David Hurst as our guest today. David is a unique reflective practitioner, a speaker, a writer, a management educator who spent 25 years as a senior operating executive navigating corporate train wrecks, which included rescuing a billion dollar industrial distributor from bankruptcy in the Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts and author of seminal books including Crisis and Renewal and the New Ecology of Leadership. Today, David and I have agreed to focus on revisiting the Ecocycle in the age of AI. We're going to dive into his famous e-cile Ecocycle model to understand how organizations are born, grow, face crisis, and renew. We will explore why AI and LLMs thrive on the predictable front loop of the Ecocycle by relying on static data but fail on the volatile back loop. Finally, David will explain why mature organizations get stuck on their own success, the rigidity trap. And that's a trap that many organizations in agriculture, food and chemicals risk facing today. What is it leaders need to do to stop acting like engineers and start acting like gardeners? We're going to explore more on this wonderful topic today. So, David, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast. Looking forward to a great conversation.

David Hurst 3:01

Well, thank you, Mark. It really is great to be with you and have this opportunity to talk about this framework. As I as you mentioned, I spent most of my life in early management life in organizational train wrecks of various kinds. Whenever I seemed to join an organization, it seemed to get into trouble. At first I thought it was me, but then I realized that there was a systemic aspect to this. And when I looked around and said, where do we find instances of organizations that progress through crises? I found them in ecology. And it was in Canadian ecologist Buzz Holling's Adaptive Cycle Panarchy Framework that I found clues to a sense making model. Because the fact is you can only start from where you are. But making sense of where you are is not a trivial matter. I want to talk about the ecological limits of artificial intelligence. And to do this, I'm going to present an ecological sense-making framework that will point

Adaptive Cycle Lessons From Ecology

David Hurst 4:16

you towards a vast collection of management heuristics. Because we know that this is how we make sense of the world, that our brains and bodies are constantly predicting what's likely to happen next. And we do this in a hierarchical structure where top down we predict what we're what is likely to happen, and bottom up we're continually searching for cues as to what is actually happening so that we can adjust our predictions. And so in this ecological framework, we're going to be coming up with this infinity loop, where on the front loop is where I think artificial intelligence fits, and on the back loop is natural intelligence, of how we made sense with the w of the world ever since the beginning of time. And the origins of this, as I mentioned, are in Buzz Holling's adaptive cycle. And he got this from studying ecologies, forests, estuaries, all kinds of ecological systems. And the adaptive cycle essentially consists of two loops, the front loop, birth, growth, maturity, followed by decline and destruction, which feeds into a back loop of the release of resources, reorganization, and the growth of new organisms coming into that new environment. So it's really a theory of context of how the world continually changes, and I essentially applied this to my management experience. And this is a very favorable to a rather eastern perspective, the Daoist framework of two processes, each of which contains within it the seeds of the other. And so it's all about a dynamic relation and tensions between opposites.

Mark Blackwell 6:26

I was just going to reflect on that. As I was reading the book, an important message for me that came across is not to think of one being better than the other, but to recognize that you need both at the same time. It's just the context of which is one you need to be thinking about.

David Hurst 6:44

Absolutely. It all depends on context. And of course, traditionally, from mainstream management theory, context has been excluded because it's tried to come up with a general values-free perspective on how the world works. And it can't possibly deal with the actual reality of the world. And so we need both and never either or. And the corollary of this, of course, is that nothing lasts unless it is incessantly renewed. And so this became my ecological framework for making sense of management. There were three great catalysts that promote cooperation in my experience. The integrative one, do this to belong, because you want to be a member of a particular group. Exchange, the classic economics rationale, do this for me and I will do this for you. And then of course power, the threat, do this or else passion, reason, power. And these became the ingredients into which I fed Holling's adaptive cycle. A long front loop and a shorter, faster back loop, and three contexts passion, reason, power, innovators all about passion,

Cooperation Contexts Passion Reason Power

David Hurst 8:11

managers and leaders, and administrators. Innovators free to act, don't know what to do. The classical entrepreneurial dilemma. You can do anything, but what would you do? You don't know.

Mark Blackwell 8:25

So indeed, maybe that's a good starting point to think about it, because I think if we do a journey of the loop, you s you start out as an entrepreneur with no idea what to do, and that's on the left hand side of your loop with a great uncertainty. Then we start on the front loop.

David Hurst 8:43

Uh th that's right, and you don't know what to do, and so you're going to take your cues from the environment where you find yourself, the group you find yourself with, what your friends are doing, maybe what's happening in social media. You're very much outward looking for opportunities for what we will call affordances, action possibilities. What can I do? And it's a question of trying things and seeing what works and what sticks, sense throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. Um and and of course um most of these early attempts fail. But for those that don't, you end up where you're free to act and you know what to do. These are the very fortunate managers because it it's a very small proportion of organizations that find themselves in this position on the front loop to a back loop where you know what to do and you're not free to act. You're constrained by power in one form or another.

Mark Blackwell 9:50

So that the the front loop is very much like Western business management. It's Six Sigma, it's optimization, it's gradually knowing your business better and better, eliminating waste, eliminating defects, and you rise up this loop, and managers get further and further away from their customers and the market and more and more internally orientated.

David Hurst 10:13

Well, that's that's right. And and and and I can tell the story of this in the in the next uh illustration is that the entrepreneurship begins in a community of practice and trust. In the background, this is a Silicon Valley network from many years ago, where the the unit of organization is the project, not the corporation. And so the members of the different projects might be from many different organizations, but their focus is on is on the project. And it's uh a process of improvisation, bricolage, Henry Minzberg calls it, of make a little, sell a little, make a little more. I think a feel of strategy coming on, strategy as emergent rather than deliberate. As being born in what works rather than any theories. And it's you know, I've got uh Stephen Blank's uh uh quote in there, startup is a temporary organization searching for a repeatable and scalable business. That's what you're looking for. But there are uh dozens of reasons as to why organizations fail a at this stage, and this is from CB Insights from a few years back, but they're they're fairly generic uh reasons why organization failed, and you can see there is varied as the organizations, and of course sometimes there are multiple versions of them, of the very few that make it to the next stage of deliberate strategy where they've found something that works and they're they're now going to scale it and make it larger and more rational, more structured, more routine. And here we have Michael Porter's value chain fits in here beautifully because it takes the disorganized entrepreneurial mess and and puts it into a nice rational flows of uh of a chain of value creation. Of course it it it's growing, scaling, everybody's doing fabulously well. Uh you want to continue this. Why why wouldn't you? You found the recipe, and you get into the conservation phase, and uh you put in an organization to preserve success. And uh there's uh another boss and the big boss on top, and this is an organization which is designed not to

From Startup Mess To Value Chain

David Hurst 12:53

change, because it's preserving success. I mean, you don't want to change. You don't want to change.

Mark Blackwell 12:58

And that type of organization has worked very well for us in s periods of stable times. That's right. And there's nothing wrong with it in that context of the world being stable.

David Hurst 13:09

Yes, and provided tomorrow is just like today, you're gonna do fabulously well. And you will for a while. And then the world changes.

Mark Blackwell 13:23

And that is what many of our listeners on this podcast are tuning in for because they're beginning to feel that the world is not quite the same world as they remembered it previously.

David Hurst 13:32

That's right. They're picking up signals that things are different. I mean, I live in Canada, and we are currently sending a stream of toxic uh smoke down south into the United States, and they're very unhappy, and their president thinks we should be paying their costs or something, but it is an indicator that things are changing, and we don't have any control over those elements that are changing. This reflects on what organizing is. It's a process of abstraction, of of diminishing differences, formalizing systems. I won't read these to you, but it's all about making the structure simple.

Mark Blackwell 14:16

We're thinking of our forest now. So the forest has grown, and uh it's grown very well because the world's been stable. But uh then there's there's a crunch point. You either do something or you face decline.

David Hurst 14:30

Yeah. The forest now has become a monoculture. We've been through the weeds and the shrubs and the lichens, and it's now grown up. Big trees now shade everything beneath them so that only their progeny can grow. It's there's reduced variety in the system. And the trees age, they get eaten out by bugs and beetles, and it sets them up and makes them vulnerable to depending on the uh uh the uh climate you're in, fire in the northern hemisphere, which is why Canada burns the way it does, because arboreal forests are vulnerable to fire, and as the world dries out under climate change, fire has begun to become more uh prevalent. And so you end up with what I call yesterday's logic, strategy as a rationalization of what is working. And this is where LLM AI, and I stress it's LLM AI, fits in because it is capable of predicting stable patterns. And at this stage the pattern is stable, and it's a pattern that you want to maintain stable because you're doing fabulously well. And of course you you you've built head office, and it's a wonderful place. And when you were an entrepreneur, if you wanted a resource you had to find a customer, because they were the only one who had resources. But now in the in the the palace, if you want a resource, you've got to get into the palace, and there's courtiers and other hangers-on

The Rigidity Trap And LLM AI

David Hurst 16:09

restricting access. You've got to get into a tower, you've got to see a prince who's got resources, and you've got your back to the customer faces to the boss. And this is a a very common criticism of organizations at this stage because of the stable structure they've created to preserve the status quo, which is what this is all about. And of course, it predicts in the past crisis, disaster, which kicks us into the back loop of the Ecocycle. And here I've taken my metaphors from an ancient text, the the the Hebrew Testament of wilderness, mountain, promised land. Wilderness is a place of confusion where you can wonder the archetypical time is forty years. I think GM spent forty years wandering in the wilderness before it went bankrupt in 2009. But it's a place of confusion where it's easy to get lost and there's many different uh suggestions about where to go, but no consensus. To get out of the wilderness, and and and many don't, you you have to climb the mountain. Adaptive leadership is the uh process required to get a view of promised land, community,

Renewal In The Back Loop

David Hurst 17:32

uh, milk, honey, resources for young people, for entrepreneurs, which gives you choice. And choice is the opposite of crisis. So the back loop tries to capture this process of renewal in a mature ecosystem that can no longer respond to the conditions in which it finds itself. And some of the frameworks one can bring into this back loop, we've got engaging complexity and and and becoming mindful. Mindfulness as opposed to mindlessness. And it's all about making meaning, searching for what J.J. Gibson, the ecological psychologist, called affordances, action possibilities, things you can do that will potentially be helpful.

Mark Blackwell 18:23

I love your analogy of the Hebrew story, because one of the themes we keep coming back to in our journey through managing complexity, which is the back loop in many ways, is the absolute criticality of having a mission and a purpose and a vision. Because you may not know the exact way to go, but to keep the people with you, you need clarity of your vision. And and that resonates so much with the Bible stories.

David Hurst 18:50

That's right. And it's all about emergence, that there's confusion, and out of that confusion, potentially, it doesn't always happen, of course, that something emerges that becomes a shared purpose, a shared way of going, a a vision, if you will, of the future. It's it's generally recognized that people need vision and purpose. But where it comes from is i is very much a debatable point. In my view, too much of modern management theory implies that it has to be supplied externally by the leader. When my experiences and and the experience of many successful organizations is that it emerges from struggle. It emerges from hardship, it emerges from setbacks. And of course there have been many historians, Arnold Toynbee in particular, he's not very fashionable today, but he looks at history this way, at nations and how they made progress and how it was challenged that played such an important role in their successful emergence.

Mark Blackwell 19:59

Indeed. So if you listen to the podcast with Erika Clegg on this, I think she would be in agreement. It's not handed down buzzwords.

David Hurst 20:08

That's right. In contrast with the front loop, I think of this back loop as the compass. So we have the map, which lends itself to artificial intelligence and and and uh particularly the LLM variety, and navigating in known patterns versus versus wayfinding of finding a way out of confusion. Once again, I think this is a an excellent tension, navigating and wayfinding the map and the compass, and of course you need both. You have to orient your map, as every Boy Scout knows, by using the compass to get it pointed in the right direction. And so they're comp complementary and essentially complementary.

Mark Blackwell 20:53

So I think it's right in saying, and push back if I've haven't understood this properly, but whilst you explain the journey of the Ecocycle along like a helter-skelter infinity loop, the reality is a manager you should think about the front and the back loop at the same time when you're managing. And and and toggle in between each loop to get the right balance according to the context of what you're doing. So you don't need to wait until you've had a general motives collapse before you enter the wilderness, but you need to adopt both thinking at the same time. Is that fair?

David Hurst 21:30

Absolutely. And once again, uh I I'm not sure I like the word thinking because I think it's too much associated with the front loop and and rationality and logic. I prefer sense making as a broader concept of how we navigate and find our way in reality.

Mark Blackwell 21:49

But as you think about this front loop and the back loop, it reminds me of lots of pairs of words that we often use in business. One of them being exploit and explore. So exploit is like for mature products, just optimize, optimize, optimize. Explore is more than new business development, managing a world of uncertainty. And this is one way of thinking about them.

David Hurst 22:16

Absolutely. And I think James March originated that pair of exploit versus explore, and it fits very nicely onto the navigate wayfinding um uh tension. Once again, you come up with a slightly different way of explaining this, it gives you or describing it, it gives you a a different vocabulary for using in in describing your journey.

Mark Blackwell 22:44

So again, another pair that comes to mind and it's thanks to you that I catalyzed my interest in a gentleman called Dr. Iain McGilchrist who's right the master in his em and his Emissary who's brought us up to date into thinking about left brain thinking and right brain thinking and I kept finding enormous parallels between the front loop and his understanding of left brain thinking and also the back loop in his understanding of the right brain thinking. Can you just expand on that a little?

David Hurst 23:17

Oh well Iain McGilchrist has been a huge inspiration to me and I discovered the master and his Emissary uh uh several decades ago now and uh I continually refer to it. Forty years ago when we

Map Vs Compass And Two Brains

David Hurst 23:32

emerged from our mess I wrote an article for the Harvard Business Review called Of Boxes, Bubbles and Effective Management and essentially it was a Daoist take on how we had found our way successfully through the crisis that we had been in. And the box of course was the structured front loop and the bubble was the ephemeral back loop where people come together in temporary coalitions that then pop and they disappear and go off and and form new bubbles and the bubbles are easy come, easy go and the boxes are permanent and hard to change. So this this Daoist framework has guided me from the very beginning and of course it was a natural introduction to McGilchrist and the Master and his Emissary and my take from the way he describes the left brain is being the reductionalist analytical breaking down into parts focusing on how to get food critically important but all about the parts whereas the right brain is more system whole the beauty the integration of things which makes me think that AI is very much more like the left brain than it is the right certainly I try to be careful by always identifying LLM AI because there are other forms of AI, particularly Karl Friston Andy Clark is a more of a neuroscientist I guess, but Karl Friston with his active inference is working on different forms of uh AI other than LLM. Now they haven't developed much traction yet but conceivably down the road these other forms of AI are going to be as necessary if there's any chance of coming up with uh an artificial general intelligence. LLM AI cannot do that. It's totally um unsuitable.

Mark Blackwell 25:39

So I'm trying to bring our listeners back into the practicalities of appreciating the model and what does it mean for them managing their businesses. And I if we can say that LLM AI is more like the front loop and then so that's what LM excels at logically humans should excel on the back loop for more right type brain thinking and therefore I was pondering about earlier today because there's been a lot of studies which show that um those in the West, US Europe, are very fearful of AI in the workplace much less so those in the w in the East which where we traditionally think of Western business people being reductionist left brain thinkers whereas Asians are more contextual and more thinking about the context and the whole and how it all relates to each other. And I just wonder if it's the natural tendencies of Asians to think about it have already tracked this down that AI is helpful but necessarily a threat to the back loop type of thinking.

David Hurst 26:52

Absolutely Richard Nisbet has uh written uh and studied this issue for many, many years and his work certainly supports that view that Eastern thinkers are much more context oriented and would put a higher value on on perhaps natural intelligence, whereas in the West we tend to have equated the front loop with being human. I I think this is the great value of LLM AI is that it's forced us to reconsider what it means to be human. And it's quite obvious that being human is much more than LLM AI can do. There's hope I think that we might get a rapprochement between Eastern thinking and western thinking through this process.

Mark Blackwell 27:41

So what if we that mean from manager trying to navigate his business that he should be doing now in an AI enabled world where as it were someone else is doing more of the front loop how can the manager or he or she leverage that back loop thinking more in their organizations?

David Hurst 28:00

Well I I've uh put together the the complete eco cycle showing how a startup goes through the process of being a scale up and then a grown-up enters the rigidity trap and the manager is positioned right in in the middle. And and I turn to another story, which is perhaps very topical given Christopher Nolan's Odyssey which has just come out and of course it is the time when Odysseus on on his boat, on his ship comes to navigate the Straits of Messina between the twin perils of Scylla, the rock of stability and Charybdis the whirlpool of change. And if you steer too close to Scylla everybody gets eaten, presumably in force reductions of the organization. And if you get too close to Charybdis you get torn apart in the whirlpool of change. In fact that's what happens to Odysseus is that he steers clear of Scylla and ends up in the whirlpool of change which eventually spits him out he can continue his journey. So maybe there's a moral in that story but basically this is adaptive space this is the adaptive space between the rock of stability and the whirlpool of change steer too close to the rock and everybody gets eaten steer too close to the whirlpool and you get dissolved and maybe spat out somewhere in a in another place of managing the organizations the other thing that came to mind is in this adaptive space on the back loop you're talking a lot about inverting the organization you know and having the boss at the bottom and the customers and the frontline staff at the top because they're closest to the action and they should be sensing and responding to what's going on.

Mark Blackwell 30:00

And it's setting ourselves up for a description of how a manager should move from being a mechanistic leader to a gardener. Maybe you could expand on that.

David Hurst 30:12

Well exactly you see forty years ago or a bit more than forty years ago now overnight we went from a growth oriented acquisition oriented industrial conglomerate really to to a cash starved wreck. We were taken over in a leverage buyouts far too much leverage we borrowed in current day about a billion dollars and it was so much money that the banks couldn't afford to close us down. It was their problem as well as ours and we found we had nineteen crises, disasters of various kinds that didn't fit into anyone's job description. So we had to I won't say abandon

Managers As Gardeners Not Engineers

David Hurst 30:59

the hierarchical organization because it was always there, but we put it into the background and the foreground came nineteen project teams staffed with people from all over the organization not necessarily with any regard to seniority and we sent them off and said here's a problem brief get out on the ground get to the coal face tell us what you see and come back with some recommendations and essentially we turned the organization upside down. We went from being a structured hierarchical reporting organization with human resources at the bottom to a networked supporting organization with clients and customers at at the top. It was a figure ground reversal we didn't go completely from one to the other it just the hierarchical reporting organization which had been so prominent when we were on the front loop because that's what you're trying to do is to make it stable and permanent went to the network supporting organization which was consisting of nineteen different teams and that spawns subsidiary teams and they would come back and say you know this is what's happening in the coal face this is what we think we should do and we would say well you're the people on the spot you have the the best knowledge and ability to act go and do it try something they came back with action possibilities this is what we should do. And so the the analytical approach to what was happening went to the background and uh a few years later after we got out of the mess we got new owners we got new financing we we left all the wreckage behind then the hierarchical reporting organization came back to the fore because it was preserving success. And so it's this continual togling and that's the word I've suggested between these two modes. Sometimes it's a slow toggle and sometimes it's a fast toggle. Sometimes you can toggle in a meeting where if you're discussing a structured part of the organization you're going to be very much hierarchical and regular pyramid. And if you're running it on the other hand for going to talk about uh affordances, action possibilities, you're going to have it in a gardening mode supporting the existing organism and seeing in what ways they can develop. And so this is the the the the essence of the manager as a gardener. Switching continually between an engineering approach design and build make it happen using artificial intelligence of course LLM AI and the cultivate and grow and let it happen and cultivating natural intelligence letting people loose to use their own innate skills. I talked in a in a blog a few weeks back about how I was when I was running a steel service center, this is a wholesaler of steel, which is a pretty prosaic commodity business from outsiders, but from insiders I used to very occasionally get up at 430 in the morning and go on a steel delivery with the with a driver and we would deliver steel to customers at about 6 AM we'd be on the road and it turns out that at that time in the customers backyards you can see all kinds of action possibilities affordances you can see threats and opportunities competitors trucks queued up delivering steel. What kind of steel are they delivering? How is our customer doing? Are they about to go on strike? Are there is their production line full or do they look as though they're heading for hard times? And so all these action possibilities emerge from being with the driver at that place at that time. It's very much uh an peculiar to that particular business. So this is the fine grained awareness of what's actually happening which allows you to adjust your big top down picture of uh that allows you to predict the world.

Mark Blackwell 35:40

It's this complementary of the of the abstract the universal with the particular an organization of any size whether it breaks its business by product lines by customer segments by regions is going to have parts of which were clearly front loop and parts of which were clearly back loop. And it's about just knowing the context for which any part of that business is in and being prepared to switch the style is so critical what I'm getting from this this call. So nothing is either bad nor good it just is.

David Hurst 36:15

Absolutely dealing with the cold face what's actually happening on the ground what are the possibilities coming out of this how should we should we be dealing with this as as a matter of corporate discipline and the hierarchy or should we be dealing with it as an action possibility and how would we make make make make use of it and I I think a large part of the story of successful business is about this emergence of opportunities by creating the right context.

Mark Blackwell 36:48

So last question David is the one we ask all of our guests I think many of our listeners agriculture food chemicals are finding themselves in large organizations where there's a lot of bureaucratic meetings and a lot of processes and they're wondering if they might be on the top of the front loop in general but they're fearing threat of change what would you suggest they do on Monday morning with their teams?

David Hurst 37:13

I always avoid making general suggestions because managers are interested in particulars. They want this organization with these people right here, right now. And any suggestions I come up with that are going to apply to everybody are going to be generic. You won't be able to disagree with them. Cultivate psychological

What To Do On Monday

David Hurst 37:35

safety. Oh yeah okay so that's good you know we need psychological safety the opposite is clearly nonsense we don't want people to feel psychologically threatened and so I can say cultivate psychological safety and everybody will nod their heads but the fact is it's it's true but useless. In fact I wrote a whole blog about that it's it's how do I do it in my situation with this organization, with these people right here right now. And those that advice is very much particular and dependent upon the individual situation.

Mark Blackwell 38:11

For me that my takeaway is sense making to what is your reality what is your context and put effort into that diagnosis because that will then determine how you respond to that situation.

David Hurst 38:25

Exactly and and my argument is that this ecological sense making framework is most helpful in doing that. Great.

Mark Blackwell 38:35

So thank you I th thoroughly enjoyed your books. Can you just remind us of your publications and where people can get them on Amazon and and other resources to find out more about you?

David Hurst 38:45

Well I do run a a blog uh www dot davidkhearst.com and that's got access to all my blogs over many years and as well as details about about the books.

Mark Blackwell 38:59

Fabulous thank you well I put everything in the show notes and thank you very much for your time. It's really been a fabulous podcast.

David Hurst 39:05

It's been great Mark really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Mark Blackwell 39:08

Bye bye