Value Centric: Why Your IBP Process Is Executing the Wrong Things Brilliantly | Dov Shenkman

Many businesses are brilliant at execution, and brilliant at executing the wrong things. Dov Shenkman, CEO of Atid Group and author of Value Centric, explains why efficiency alone is a downward spiral, and how AI is about to close the gap between planning and value.

Profit is not the goal. Profit is a result.

That single reframe sits at the heart of this conversation with Dov Shenkman, CEO of Atid Group and author of the newly published Value Centric. Dov spent more than three decades leading global supply chains and operations, including major overhauls at Medtronic and Walgreens Boots Alliance, before turning his attention to a blind spot he sees in most S&OP and IBP processes, they are built for efficiency in a stable world that no longer exists.

Mark and Dov trace the evolution of S&OP through to Integrated Business Planning, and why even organisations that have mastered the methodology can still be playing brilliantly in the wrong ocean.

What we cover:

The premise behind "brilliant execution of the wrong things" — why efficiency-focused planning, however well run, tends to reinforce a downward spiral rather than reverse it.

Value as the missing trade-off currency — Dov's case for treating value, not revenue or forecast accuracy, as the true bridge between sales and operations.

The Customer-Business Value Matrix — how to segment customers into value partners, retention risks, margin diluters and value destroyers, and why the hardest conversations are usually about the last group.

From paper maps to self-driving cars — Dov's analogy for where AI takes S&OP and IBP next, and why most organisations are still navigating with a GPS rather than letting the system close the loop.

Reactive versus proactive transformation — why roughly 90% of the transformations Dov has led in his career were reactive, and what it takes to get ahead of the curve instead of responding to it.

This episode is essential listening for Business leaders, S&OP leaders, supply chain and operations executives, commercial and finance leaders, and anyone responsible for turning planning into genuine value creation.

Related episodes:

• Fusion Strategy: The $75 Trillion Industrial AI Opportunity | Venkat Venkatraman — https://www.buzzsprout.com/2012667/episodes/19324094
• Niels Van Hove on Human-AI Collaboration in S&OE, S&OP & IBP — https://www.buzzsprout.com/2012667/episodes/18425013
  
  
  Connect with Dov Shenkman
  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dov-shenkman-a090162/
  Book: Value Centric: The Proven Framework for How Modern Companies Transform and Win — https://a.co/d/0j4X7F8G
  Blog: https://www.valuecentricibp.com/blog

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Transcript

The Efficiency Trap

Dov Shenkman 0:00

And to some extent, uh that's the premises of executing the wrong thing brilliantly. Because if you focus only on efficiency, in a way you play in the red ocean, given the blue ocean and red ocean uh theory. And that's a downward uh spiral.

Mark Blackwell 0:20

Welcome back to the Arkaro Insights podcast. This is the show where we help the busy business executives thrive in a complex adaptive world. Our mission on this show is driven by a core principle from Professor Willie Pietersen of the Columbia Business School. The organizations that will thrive are those that can learn and adapt faster than the rate of change in the environment. And we're today we're tackling a blind spot in how many organizations try to achieve that goal of adapting to the world that they find themselves in. My guest today argues that many businesses are delivering brilliant execution of the wrong thing. Joining me to unpack is Dov Shenkman. Dov is the

What S&OP And IBP Try To Do

Mark Blackwell 1:10

CEO of the Atid Group and the author of the recently published Value Centric. His career spans more than three decades, leading global supply chains and operations at the highest levels, including major overhauls at Medtronic and Walgreens Boots Alliance. Today we're going to dive into how to shift from an inside-out view to an outside in view of value creation and how to use AI as a way of accelerating this change. Dov, welcome to the show.

Dov Shenkman 1:43

Mark, thank you for having me. And I'm sorry it took us so long to schedule it, but I'm really excited to chat with you. And I'm as, as you know, very passionate about the subject we're going to be talking about.

Mark Blackwell 1:55

It's a joint passion, Dov. For context, you know, I came into the world that we're going to talk about of sales and operations planning and integrated business planning as a sales and marketing guy, as a business development guy. And there were bits, of course, that I loved, but I think we're fine that we've got some common ground and then what you're proposing. But I've already used terminology, which I'm sure is going to confuse listeners and things like S&OP, SIOP, integrated business planning. Can we just spend a couple of minutes trying to get our listeners aligned on the conversation today? And maybe from your perspective, history of what is S&OP, what is IBP, what has it been trying to do?

Dov Shenkman 2:42

So S&OP stands for Sales and Operational Clanks. It's a methodology that evolved in late 70s, uh early 80s. And basically the premises of it is that as organizations grow, each function is trying to optimize their objective based on their own KPIs. And you need something to bridge between functions. And basically, this S&OP function is to do exactly that: to take the sales objectives and the operational objectives and align them based on forecast constraint and et cetera. And it is a methodology that was designed in a relatively stable world. You know, the 70s, 80s, there were some disruptions, some growth, but more or less it was a relatively stable world. And the main premises of the methodology is efficiency. Is how do you coordinate between sales and operations to create the most efficient plan to satisfy the sales forecast? Oliver White took it to the next level, they did a great job educating organization S&OP, and they took it to the next level with IBP by adding an additional aspect of strategy. And IBP is now integrated business planning. And from strategy perspective, what they viewed as strategy is the portfolio. So what new products are coming up, what new services are coming up, and how do you coordinate it throughout the demand, supply, you have financial review and management review in the past. But yet again, the main focus is for a stable organization and an organization that focuses on efficiency. And to some extent, uh that's the premises of executing the wrong thing brilliantly. Because if you focus only on efficiency, in a way you play in the red ocean, given the blue ocean and red ocean uh theory. And that's a downward uh spiral. You know, Peter Drucker one once said is that there's no business without a customer. And if there's no business without the customer, how do you understand how to grow and maintain that customer? And I use the analogy of love. What is love? Love love is a magnet. And the question is, is there love in business? And my premises is yes, love and business is value. Customer value is why they buy, business value is why we want them to buy. That's the magnet between the two. And if you look at value-centric, to some extent, is uh couples therapy for the two to make sure that their relationship is maintained, grows over time, and uh being healthy.

Mark Blackwell 5:36

And what so I think you're you're describing what should be with uh putting some love into our BDP processes. Um that would be great. But the reality is I don't know what you see, um, but I see just a whole wide range of processes and in practices which are indicators and things going wrong. And I'm still shocked that very large organizations still think this is a process of getting stuff out the door and delivering OTIF and it is volume-driven. Can you just maybe list off your top five, top ten things which are organizations not showing the love?

Dov Shenkman 6:16

I absolutely agree with you. I think that the focus becomes mainly on maintaining forecast accuracy, uh basically coordinating the sales because sales uh tend to be more optimistic, operational becomes more conservative, uh, really negotiating each one of the functional objectives and trying to really optimize efficiency or in coordinate between the different functions. And the main, obviously, goal in in this organization is profit. And my premise is that profit is not the goal. Profit is the result. And profit is the result between the value that you deliver to your customer, given what they're willing to pay for your value, and cost that it takes you to generate that value. And if you focus on better value, and at the same time, efficiency is very important. And cross-functional coordination is a given. You basically increase the profit and the alignment throughout the organization and throughout the different functions. I get comments from people that implemented S Nope. To some extent, I faced it whenever I try to implement an IBP in a large organization. Well, the CEO has a conflict on his calendar and he has problems participating in the meetings. My premises is that CEO does not have a problem with this calendar. The CEO has a problem that the IBP and S&OP became a bureaucratic reporting meeting rather than value discovery and value delivery.

Mark Blackwell 7:49

I'm absolutely with you for that. I mean, uh one of the for me, the biggest failure mode of an IBP implementation is if the business leader does not see it as his or her way of running the business. Exactly. If there are multiple business processes going on, then S&OP will be no more at best than a process to get stuff out of the factory. And no more than that. Absolutely.

Dov Shenkman 8:14

Which is again efficiency and coordination, which is absolutely important, but not sufficient in today's world. Because today's world is rapidly changing, and focusing

When Planning Becomes Bureaucracy

Dov Shenkman 8:25

on methodology that doesn't identify the change and embed it in the process is disastrous.

Mark Blackwell 8:31

So tell me, what are some of the things that uh you are positioning that say we need to give the next big leap forward in IBP so that it becomes more relevant and more useful?

Dov Shenkman 8:44

So the first thing is really uh understanding value-centric, just perhaps value-centric is a journey. It's not a transformational project that has an end. It's a journey and it's a philosophy that as you embrace the philosophy, you start to gain more and more benefit. It's like Toyota Zero Waste or 100 defects. How many organizations do you know, Mark, that has zero waste or zero defects? Zero. Exactly. But once you embrace the philosophy and once you start going on the journey, you start realizing the benefits. So the key is there are several principles. One is value segmentation, really understanding the value that your customers are gaining, the reason they're buying, how does it compare to your competition, and segmenting your customer based on their value realization, not based on size, demographic, or other criteria. Because that's the common denominator of your offering. And once you understand that, you can address it. Second principle, understand the segmentation of customers, high value, low value, and the value that your business is realizing on those services. Now you can have the what I call the customer business value metrics, and you start developing different strategies for different customers. For example, the value partners are the ones that have high value from customer and high value from business. You want more of those. You want to understand what are the characteristics of those customers and how to gain more. And the last principle of value-centric is capability development. So, really, capability is taking time and investment to develop, especially if you want a capability that is a competitive mode or a core competency. Understanding the value proposition, understanding the competitive gap of your value proposition and competitive competition, and deciding how do you want to evolve that, again, playing in the blue ocean as much as you can rather than the red ocean aligns to help you to identify what capabilities you have to evolve within the organization. And that is now incorporated in the IBP process. So you track that development of those capabilities over time. And as they're being introduced, you see if they change your value equations or not.

Mark Blackwell 11:14

So many of our listeners are saying, saying, Well, Dov, that's obvious. You know, we have needs-based customer segmentation in our organization. I mean, just as we have market back innovation programs and all, you know, where we think about the customer needs first.

Value Centric Principles That Shift Outcomes

Mark Blackwell 11:30

But so often those are processes that are completely independent, running parallel processing for sales, yeah. Why? Why? Because people are not stupid. What why has this happened? Because why can we live in this cognitive dissonance of knowing what's the right thing to do, but not putting all together?

Dov Shenkman 11:52

I I thought a lot about it, and I and through my transformation with 30 plus years of experience, you know, looked at different things, and uh value is hard to measure. Understanding value needs and segmenting by value needs is not easy, and there's not a methodology like financial measures, accounting standards, and et cetera, that you need to follow that that is there. It's something that needs to be developed individually for an organization. And I think that this is one of the reasons because it's much easier to look at financial KPIs, operational KPIs, which by the way, are reactive rather than proactive. They are uh lagging indicators that tell you that you have water in your shoes rather than forecasting that the rain is gonna come. So, and but it's easier. And that's why the organizations are focusing, you know, and to some extent Wall Street with the public and trade companies reinforcing it because that's what they are looking at. But the smart analysts are looking at the value, the smart analysts are looking at the value proposition, they are looking at at the value differentiation and the capabilities the organization have. You know, I get a lot of uh private equity and investors uh asking for interviews, and through their interviews, that's exactly what they're seeking. Because that's how they evaluate their investment.

Mark Blackwell 13:22

I mean, I just give some practical examples. I mean, one of them that I often laugh at is why we think that we're serving the customer but failing miserably. So and a supply review will say, What is my OTIF? So what's my on-time in full metric? And so then you delve into this. First of all, it's actually when does the product leave the gate of our factory, rather than completely no idea when it arrives at the customer. And it's definitely like one customer might be having a strategy of they just want low cost, and they're very happy to have inventory because they've got a big warehouse and they want it there, they just want to buy in bulk. Another customer might need just in time delivery because they have no warehouse, right? And they've got to get it there. Um the concept of value for each of those two customers is very different, and yet we wrap it up into one number, which is meaningless for neither.

Dov Shenkman 14:16

Yeah, uh absolutely, Mark. And you know, another example I'm and throughout the book, I tried to use well-known companies throughout the book so people can relate easily to uh it's Netflix. You know, Netflix and Blockbuster, Blockbuster has retail outlets, Netflix initiated the process of sending DVDs to your home that you needed to return, that easy return process, et cetera. So if you look at that example, if Netflix would do S&OP and be internally focused, it will be focused on efficiency of their logistics and DVD sending processes. But they did not. They understood what is the true value, what is our customer trying to do, and how do we how do we invest in capabilities, which is the whole streaming capability and new technology, to really totally change the game. I think that in today's fast, fast-changing environment, companies that will survive and win are the ones that are not looking at how to play the game better, but how they can reinvent the game and change the game.

Mark Blackwell 15:16

Totally. I mean, we've got I had a fabulous podcast recently with Professor Venkatraman on fusion strategy, who was extremely provocative for asset heavy businesses, which is $75 trillion of GDP, and how they could be and should be engaging in the data world for develop their business models just as a starter. But I unfortunately you I think you hit the nail on the head that what we've done is measure the easy things, not the value things. You know, the numbers that keep you out of our ERP system, we just put them on charts and try to follow those. Yeah. And I very much felt for this. We had Niels Van Hove uh a couple of months ago.

Why Value Is Hard To Measure

Mark Blackwell 16:05

And he likened a typical S&OP meeting more like going to the dentist. I mean, it's so difficult to extract even that simple data from a system and get it in a way that people can align to. How on earth are we gonna get something which is more, you know, even harder to measure? Can you help me unpack this one a bit?

Dov Shenkman 16:27

I think I think it's about to change. And I'm working with some companies that uh hopefully will change. And the enable you mentioned at the beginning of a conversation, is AI. And the analogy I will use is that, you know, I will date myself, but when I used to go on a trip with my wife, we used to go to AAA in the US and get paper maps and track you where you go uh with your finger to make sure that that your trap is progressing. Then we had GPS evolving, uh, which to some extent created the plan on how to go from A to B, and you followed uh the plan. And then uh that GPS was enhanced with the van traffic and rerouting and et cetera. And a few months ago, I visited San Francisco and I uh took a Waymo. There's no it has GPS, but it has, you know, it it drives itself and it's amazing. I was I was positively amazed and and shocked with that capital. So if you ask yourself, what is the parallel in supply chain? What is the parallel of the destination? Because of the uh so today, organizations, I think, are in between the manual map and the GPS without external data. And if with the GPS and with the map, you you basically rely on the driver to bridge between the GPS tells them to do to the execution. This is the S&OP process to some extent that tries to navigate different system our systems are fragmented, the data is fragmented, there are competing KPIs, and if you don't have a clear trade-off process, which I claim is value, you are basically having confrontation between functions of who's cream faster and who stronger and who can really uh convince somebody to make decisions. So I think that that this reliance on the individual to totally close the gap with partially available information and bridging different systems, different data sets, incoherent data to some extent is about the changes. And as the Waymo example, that is closing the gap between the plan and execution and on an ongoing basis readjust itself. We are in for a revolution that will change the planning system and the execution system within the company. Again, you need to have the trade-off break-even process, again, which I claim is value. And obviously, supply chain is more sophisticated that looking at the road, there are many more variables and et cetera, and there's bigger lead time between events happening and that impacting the supply chain. And we'll always have individuals and the individual judgment for the decision, but the whole coordination, I think we will see huge changes in the in the next few years. And as I mentioned, I've already been working with some companies that that are starting to have initial success, and they're all so right.

Mark Blackwell 19:26

I there's a chapter 12, I think, in your book, which I loved, which is the AI chapter, and I found a delight thinking about how the world might be. I've often seen it's right that we have customer service in a demand review to start providing some guidance to what's going on. But it's anecdotal best, and it doesn't really move the needle. You're envisaging a world where we get all of our corporate data systems, our customer complaint systems, the order processing system,

OTIF Metrics And The Netflix Lesson

Mark Blackwell 19:55

the trend analysis coming in and II taking all of this relatively unstructured data and doing what it is good at is getting insights from unstructured data. So we start getting early warning signals of where the value might be changing.

Dov Shenkman 20:12

Correct. Including market competitor data and defining the competition in the right way and really understanding what is the gap between us and the competition. And if I can go back to the value customer business metrics, I define four different types of customers based on a very simplistic view of high value to the customer, low value to the customer, and high value uh value to the business, and low value to the business. So we talk about the value partners. Those are the most valuable customers to you. They are high reference, you make money, they're happy. How do you get more? That's your goal, and how do you protect them? And you have retention risks. Those are the ones that your CFO is very happy about them because you make value, you generate value in them, but they are not really getting much value from you. So your competitors around the corner with a box of chocolate and flowers, whispering to those customers, I can do better. Uh, and unless you have a switching cost barrier, which I believe, I don't believe the switching costs as the way to keep customers is temporary. You know, one morning you will wake up and you will see the suitcases close to the door, and the customer will say goodbye. They're leaving because they found a way to resolve that that switching barrier. So, really, how do you convert retention uh risks to value partners? How do you identify why they're not getting as much value and how do you increase their value? The next portion is the margin diluters. They are the ones that they are very happy, they're getting a lot of value from you, but you're not generating much value from them. So, how do you convert them? How do you identify cheaper? Ways to maintain them, how do you how do you uh focus on efficiency and reconvert as many as possible to to value partners? But an important aspect is the value destroyers. Value destroyers are the ones that both of you are not realizing value, and you don't really know why you're in this relationship. So I think that one of the important, most beneficial ways throughout the integrated business planning processes, throughout the value segmentation, is understand those value destroyers.

Mark Blackwell 22:31

Because we have to make some rough and ready rules. You know, revenue is king, so we keep driving revenue, which is why we end up with these value destroyers. We have no sense, well, we if we start taking off too much of these value destroyers, then we're gonna have too much fixed costs. So we'll keep them even if they're covering fixed costs, and our business becomes unhealthier and unhealthier over time.

Dov Shenkman 22:53

Exactly, because they consume resources. Instead of redirecting those resources, so the courage to make the right decisions is part of the process, and this directs you to take the right decision. And in the book, I have several examples of companies that employ strategies to move that from one segment to another.

Mark Blackwell 23:14

Again, there's so much to read in the book. I'm only just going to put one or two little bits that really caught my eye and encourage people to go out and buy the book, which is so that's the reason for this book.

Dov Shenkman 23:24

Thank you.

Mark Blackwell 23:25

Thank you much. Appreciate it. Uh there's chapter 13 I loved as well because hot

AI As The Next Planning Revolution

Mark Blackwell 23:30

off the heels of recording this is the podcast with Venkat on uh his fusion strategy, which was thinking of the heavy industry of the future are going to be select ecosystem of partners working together to create value and having data being the value creator that's not available to us before. That means we do have to not only think about our IBP process as external for our customers, but are external to work with our collaborators in the value ecosystem as well to make that work. Otherwise, the whole thing ain't going to happen. So I obviously got a lot of passion for that part as well. Please don't. Well, I was going to say it excites me. I mean, I can't argue about anything that you say in theory. I mean, I think it's you know the the ideas are there, but I want to just take us all back to reality. And my reality is, as I said at the earlier on, it's not just small to medium-sized businesses, but very large organizations. I see them having planning processes which have a short-term horizon. 90% of the processes in the next three months or so, the focus is on how do we ship stuff out of the door to make the month numbers. Very toxic bad practices, I would say, for the health of the business. But that's the reality of where we are. How do we make this journey? And how would you imagine you know, a good process to look like in three, four, five years' time when the technology is adopted and embedded in organizations?

Dov Shenkman 25:08

So I spend a lot of time on McDonald and talking to executives, and you pinpoint the right point. Nobody disagrees that value is important, but but everybody struggle. Where do I start and how do I start? And the key is that you don't need to figure out your journey till the end. Because to some extent, it's a journey. You may not see the end destination. Start the journey. But the challenge is that the pace of the journey is not dictated by you. The pace of the journey is dictated by your competition and the customer. So the need, and and to some extent, I uh because of what you said, and I and I uh had a few posts on LinkedIn about it, and I talked a lot with executives about it, the difference between reactive transformation and practice transformation. And which would you like to be? I I throughout my career was a part of many transformations. And I must say that I would say 90% of them were reactive. And reactive is exactly what you described. Everybody's busy in the day-to-day, they forget about the customer, and when when they wake up and understand that they're deep inside the Red Ocean, they need transformation to cut costs and et cetera. And few of those focus on changing the value, most of those focus on how they become more efficient, which is again reinforcing the spiral downwards. The proactive basically ask, okay, what is my value today, and how can I reinvent my business before somebody else reinvents it for me? And I think that the companies that realize that, especially in the current changing environment, especially with the key enablement of AI, because there's a lot of talk about AI replacing employees and doing efficiency. That's not the point of AI. Yeah, it may be a reality, but that's not the point. The point is how do you leverage AI to change the game and create new new equation of value to your customer and for yourself. And that's where kind of I'm preaching. Again, it's it's a paradigm shift. We are in the midst of a paradigm shift, and we are in the midst of an innovation curve shift. I I have 30 plus years of experience in my career. The only time that I can recall a similar thing was the dot-com era. This is dot com on sterile. So I think that that executives in the companies and leaders are looking at that and saying, I don't have a choice. I have I need to have a different way to reinvent my company, otherwise I will become obsolete. Startups do not have a choice because if the if they don't have the right value proposition, they're not a business.

Mark Blackwell 28:04

Yeah.

Four Customer Types By Value

Mark Blackwell 28:06

I mean again, this is what I think the if I dare I say it, the wiser people and podcast guests like Stephen Wonker are uh advocating strongly, right? Okay, there's some cost reduction with AI and some jobs will be lost. But this is a opportunity to redefine what value means by redefining how you operate your business. First of all, get clear on how you would love to imagine a new business, a new operating model without the constraints of today. Identify what the bottlenecks are and then put the AI in those bottlenecks. Exactly. And there'll be more, and and you know, there's a report that came out this week in the FT. The companies that are investing in AI are also investing in more people. There's a correlation beginning to it emerge. It is not a cost reduction phenomenon by those who are doing it well, it is a way to create value.

Dov Shenkman 29:03

Exactly. Exactly. Look, not everybody can be a winner, and I hope enough people realize what they'll just talk about a leadership position and really work the genetic up. And it's not easy. If it'll be easy, everybody will be doing it. Change, transformation, leadership, changing the game is not easy, but it's necessary in such a quick changing world. And uh, you know, I had a conversation with the CEO, and we talked about why there are business cycles. Why you one year you read about a company, it's a darling of uh Wall Street, and then the next thing they're they're in trouble and they're close to bankruptcy. It's exactly for that reason. They took their eye off the mutual value zone and they allowed the competitive position change, and they're in trouble now.

Mark Blackwell 29:52

Well, thank you for the stock warning. But I think on the back of that has been a lot of optimism that you provide and inspiration as well. So if you are listening to this podcast out there, and maybe you're a um you know demand planner, uh an S&OP leader, a supply chain leader, a product manager, or even maybe a finance manager, and you think, I like the sound of what I'm hearing. And if I get my boss in the corridor for five minutes, what would be some of the things that we could talk about to get some of this moving?

Dov Shenkman 30:24

I think it's just embracing the concept of looking at leading indicators, this style of legging indicators, being proactive and value from my perspective is the key leading indicator. Because when you realize that your revenue goes down, it's it's months, if not years, upperly value proposition totally changes. So the thing that I would focus is communicate sense of urgency and encourage to start the journey. Because if you start the journey one step at a time, that's why I always tell my team, you don't realize that one day you look back and say, Wow, how far

Starting The Journey Without Waiting

Dov Shenkman 31:05

did I climb? But you need Absolutely.

Mark Blackwell 31:07

Every journey starts with one small step, you're so right. And just keep doing it one cycle at a time, and the transformation will be there.

Dov Shenkman 31:15

Yeah. Absolutely.

Mark Blackwell 31:16

So, Duff, um just can you give everyone the details of your book and your blog and where they can find out more about you?

Dov Shenkman 31:23

So Value Centric is on Amazon. It's uh I don't know if you can put the link in there, but yes, I'll be full note, full filters in the show notes.

Mark Blackwell 31:32

And I think it's doing rather well on Amazon if I'm right, isn't she?

Dov Shenkman 31:34

Yeah, absolutely. It was uh new release, number one new release on Amazon is doing well, and actually uh you will see tomorrow that that I will be uh expanding to retail and libraries. So I had the uh the retail edition of the book, and I will post on LinkedIn about that, and you will start uh hopefully finding it in selective retail stores, but it's doing well, and again, my motivation is uh as you know, I I retired from corporate life uh about a year ago, and my motivation is to share my experience and share my learnings, and uh, as many people want to engage in a dialogue or read the book, I think, as I say, in the book, don't take the book as the Ten Commitments. As long as you gain something valuable and it makes you think, I achieved my goal as a writer. Because my goal is to share my experience and influence. Uh hopefully, if they agree, people's thinking. Even if they don't agree, I also influence their thinking.

Mark Blackwell 32:35

Well, thank you, Duv. Very enjoyable conversation. Let's hope we can inspire a few organizations to take the first steps on their value centric journey. Thank you. Bye bye.

Dov Shenkman 32:44

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Mark.

Mark Blackwell 32:46

Cheers, thank you.